PF 4.0, Anybody Worried?
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:FI:ZekeMan
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PF 4.0, Anybody Worried?
I've been perusing the PF forum and read a couple of threads dealing with the performance hits and the new FM. I think I am more concerned about the new FM that the CPU hits at this time. Has anyone heard anything new?
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:FI:Gurberly
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Sapper-FIN
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:FI:ZekeMan
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Now here's what peels my apple: the FM's in IL-2/FB/AEP/PF are suppose to be some of the most "realistic" for an aircraft sim. If that's the case, what in the world is Oleg actually changing? I read how take offs and landings are to be different also. I hope they're not deliberatly making them harder than they need to be to satisfy a few individuals that don't think the sim is difficult enough. We already deal with engine torque issues, acceleration, and the like, wind too, I think. I also hope they don't deliberately make certian aircraft fly like bricks with wings.
We sleep safe in our beds, because rough men stand ready in the night, to visit violence upon those that would do us harm... James Orwell
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:FI:Falcon
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gah!
Zeke!
where do I start?
Yeah, Oleg's stuff is the best stuff around, but on too many occasions does the flight model "fake" flight and not sim flight. It skews the numbers to kinna make the a/c twist a bit on takeoff, instead of flipping the ac on its' back if you don't have full opposite aileron and half opposite rudder keeping it upright.
Stalls are a joke in most a/c in IL-2, slips are only partially modeled, retaining energy is a huge kritter that is so messed up I've forgotten which ac are slick and which are not. Try flying the P-11. It can hardly takeoff. Other planes have been adjusted so much that the marginal ac are pushed off the bottom of the envelope.
Yes, this game is fantastic, but the new fm has much oportunity to improve. If everyone has to learn to fly again, that might not be a bad sign.
F
Zeke!
where do I start?
Yeah, Oleg's stuff is the best stuff around, but on too many occasions does the flight model "fake" flight and not sim flight. It skews the numbers to kinna make the a/c twist a bit on takeoff, instead of flipping the ac on its' back if you don't have full opposite aileron and half opposite rudder keeping it upright.
Stalls are a joke in most a/c in IL-2, slips are only partially modeled, retaining energy is a huge kritter that is so messed up I've forgotten which ac are slick and which are not. Try flying the P-11. It can hardly takeoff. Other planes have been adjusted so much that the marginal ac are pushed off the bottom of the envelope.
Yes, this game is fantastic, but the new fm has much oportunity to improve. If everyone has to learn to fly again, that might not be a bad sign.
F
"He who warned, uh, the British that they weren't gonna be takin' away our arms, uh, by ringing those bells, and um, makin' sure as he's riding his horse through town to send those warning shots and bells that we were going to be sure and we were going to be free, and we were going to be armed."
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:FI:ZekeMan
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Oh! Well...if you put it that way.:FI:Falcon wrote:gah!
Zeke!
where do I start?
Yeah, Oleg's stuff is the best stuff around, but on too many occasions does the flight model "fake" flight and not sim flight. It skews the numbers to kinna make the a/c twist a bit on takeoff, instead of flipping the ac on its' back if you don't have full opposite aileron and half opposite rudder keeping it upright.
Stalls are a joke in most a/c in IL-2, slips are only partially modeled, retaining energy is a huge kritter that is so messed up I've forgotten which ac are slick and which are not. Try flying the P-11. It can hardly takeoff. Other planes have been adjusted so much that the marginal ac are pushed off the bottom of the envelope.
Yes, this game is fantastic, but the new fm has much oportunity to improve. If everyone has to learn to fly again, that might not be a bad sign.
F
We sleep safe in our beds, because rough men stand ready in the night, to visit violence upon those that would do us harm... James Orwell
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:FI:WillieOFS
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I have to agree with Falkky.
They got a few of 'em with the P factor reversed..
You have to apply the WRONG rudder input for the direction the prop is turning.. 
Read some real life stories about flying the P-40. It was a nasty critter. Power changes demanded constant trim input. I recall the spit was the same. The 109's pilots were told to KEEP THE TAIL DOWN until the lil rudder could get a bite ( somewhere around 70 or 80 mph if I remember correctly) Watch the AI take off in autopilot and lift the tail at 50-60Kmh.. 
WWII fighter AC were NOT designed to be user friendly. They were designed to fly at the edge of the stability envelope. The game planes have been toned down for this sim in order to alleviate the frustration factor of gettin one airborne in the game and keeping it there and MAYBE winning a shootout.
They got a few of 'em with the P factor reversed..
You have to apply the WRONG rudder input for the direction the prop is turning.. Read some real life stories about flying the P-40. It was a nasty critter. Power changes demanded constant trim input. I recall the spit was the same. The 109's pilots were told to KEEP THE TAIL DOWN until the lil rudder could get a bite ( somewhere around 70 or 80 mph if I remember correctly) Watch the AI take off in autopilot and lift the tail at 50-60Kmh..
WWII fighter AC were NOT designed to be user friendly. They were designed to fly at the edge of the stability envelope. The game planes have been toned down for this sim in order to alleviate the frustration factor of gettin one airborne in the game and keeping it there and MAYBE winning a shootout.
Mindless Dribble and Off Topic posts are my specialty!
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:FI:Heloego
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Zekeman said...
...
Yeah. Dog forbid that they might include something like, oh, maybe the IL2 Sturmovik, right?I also hope they don't deliberately make certian aircraft fly like bricks with wings.
...and wear your feckin' mask!!!!! 
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:FI:ZekeMan
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Re: Zekeman said...
Hell, that already flies like a brick! If it were any worse it couldn't stay in the air.:FI:Heloego wrote:...Yeah. Dog forbid that they might include something like, oh, maybe the IL2 Sturmovik, right?I also hope they don't deliberately make certian aircraft fly like bricks with wings.
We sleep safe in our beds, because rough men stand ready in the night, to visit violence upon those that would do us harm... James Orwell
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Beowolff
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i'm a tad worried that (like some has already mentioned) any more cpu power drain might put my older machine under the edge of flight... but if it does, it does. not much i can do about it.
as to the old flight models being skewered... i'm sure several (if in reality, perhaps not all of them) of the the flight models are off in various degrees. in fact, i'm sure they are skewered. more or less. after all, to be complete one hundred percent authentic and to factor in all of the possible variables of flight, the conditions of the weather/atmosphere/gravity/construction material/construction techniques/fuel load-quality/engine performance from different companies...etc, etc... and how all of that effects flight handling to and upon ANY plane, would sure as hell take some POWERFUL programming and even if it were possible, i don't think you'd be buying it for 40 bucks american dollars.
40 million buckaroos maybe, but not a mere 40 bucks.
so that right there knocks the "flight models ain't right" argument right in the head. any on this forum with a spare 40 million or so? or hell, make that just 40,000.00? 4,000.00 ? hell, 400.00 ?
under a profit or loss situation---keeping the 'profit' part to the forefront of the mind, even the BEST programmers in the world would only be able to do for the cost of this product (IL2/FB/Aces/PF) would be an 'approximation' of somewhat 'similiar' handling and behavior of any aircraft.
and that's about it. anything more would cost BIG BUCKS and we couldn't fly it because it would be too expensive for us to buy. and that's saying it could even be done in the first place. which even at our present advanced electronic/computing age level would be an 'iffy' thing indeed.
any sort of real flight formula, but in particular a heavier than air flight formula, has to take into account thousands upon thousands of equations. perhaps millions of equations... and that sort of heavy duty math (at this stage of our electronic development) is still a bit above us. even for governments that have millions of our tax dollars to spare and spend.
and even if completely authentic mathmatical formulas could be developed for our WW2 planes... it would take one HELL of a MONSTER computer to run them in any sort of realistic fashion. something none of us could afford even if there was one. we'd also most likely need our own powerplant to power the machine up. oouch! what a light bill!
i guess what i'm saying is that IL2's flight models are surely NOT one hundred percent authentic... its a given. and yeah, there's some heavy duty toning down to many of them. and some glaring mistakes. but for a 40 dollar game that will play on most of our affordable home computers... hey, they ain't real bad. closest yet in any game that's come down the pike.
and they make the game interesting and fun...even challenging to some degree.
is there room for improvement? surely. and hopefully this new flight model that Oleg is talking about will help get it a teeny bit closer to being more AUTHENTIC LIKE. and if it takes relearning how to fly in IL2, well then, okay. I'm for it.
but hey, even if they decide NOT to touch it, it'll be okay with me. i'm happy as it is...warts and all. for the alternative is ZERO. or just about. CFS2/3 just don't count. and nobody else is even in the running. and I WANT to fly WW2 combat aircraft! even if i don't do it very well... (snicker.)
Beowolff
as to the old flight models being skewered... i'm sure several (if in reality, perhaps not all of them) of the the flight models are off in various degrees. in fact, i'm sure they are skewered. more or less. after all, to be complete one hundred percent authentic and to factor in all of the possible variables of flight, the conditions of the weather/atmosphere/gravity/construction material/construction techniques/fuel load-quality/engine performance from different companies...etc, etc... and how all of that effects flight handling to and upon ANY plane, would sure as hell take some POWERFUL programming and even if it were possible, i don't think you'd be buying it for 40 bucks american dollars.
40 million buckaroos maybe, but not a mere 40 bucks.
so that right there knocks the "flight models ain't right" argument right in the head. any on this forum with a spare 40 million or so? or hell, make that just 40,000.00? 4,000.00 ? hell, 400.00 ?
under a profit or loss situation---keeping the 'profit' part to the forefront of the mind, even the BEST programmers in the world would only be able to do for the cost of this product (IL2/FB/Aces/PF) would be an 'approximation' of somewhat 'similiar' handling and behavior of any aircraft.
and that's about it. anything more would cost BIG BUCKS and we couldn't fly it because it would be too expensive for us to buy. and that's saying it could even be done in the first place. which even at our present advanced electronic/computing age level would be an 'iffy' thing indeed.
any sort of real flight formula, but in particular a heavier than air flight formula, has to take into account thousands upon thousands of equations. perhaps millions of equations... and that sort of heavy duty math (at this stage of our electronic development) is still a bit above us. even for governments that have millions of our tax dollars to spare and spend.
and even if completely authentic mathmatical formulas could be developed for our WW2 planes... it would take one HELL of a MONSTER computer to run them in any sort of realistic fashion. something none of us could afford even if there was one. we'd also most likely need our own powerplant to power the machine up. oouch! what a light bill!
i guess what i'm saying is that IL2's flight models are surely NOT one hundred percent authentic... its a given. and yeah, there's some heavy duty toning down to many of them. and some glaring mistakes. but for a 40 dollar game that will play on most of our affordable home computers... hey, they ain't real bad. closest yet in any game that's come down the pike.
and they make the game interesting and fun...even challenging to some degree.
is there room for improvement? surely. and hopefully this new flight model that Oleg is talking about will help get it a teeny bit closer to being more AUTHENTIC LIKE. and if it takes relearning how to fly in IL2, well then, okay. I'm for it.
but hey, even if they decide NOT to touch it, it'll be okay with me. i'm happy as it is...warts and all. for the alternative is ZERO. or just about. CFS2/3 just don't count. and nobody else is even in the running. and I WANT to fly WW2 combat aircraft! even if i don't do it very well... (snicker.)
Beowolff
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:FI:Snaphoo
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Worried?
Nah... Not really... I know that, regardless of what Oleg does to the current game, people will complain, others will rave, and I will be shot down... again and again...
*sigh*
*sigh*
You've got red on you.
Give me the punch ladle, I'll fathom the bowl.
Give me the punch ladle, I'll fathom the bowl.
