Fighting Irish Forums

The recent discussions about teamwork or lack of at times in the squad has got me around to thinking about how we fly missions in the FIS.

Tacticals post about MOH not using stats when flying together persuaded me to post here and give my thoughts on this and hear others opinions.

I believe keeping stats and the showing of them and points at the end of the mission is really detrimental to teamplay. Pretty much all the bad individualistic flying that happens comes about at the contact area with the enemy. Stats show nothing of teamwork they only reward the individual chasing points. And that is what nearly always happens. We can improve our takeoff proceedure, have better in formation flying, tighten up our use of comms but hit the enemy and its everyone scatter to the four winds .

So whats the point of flying without stats?

Well you fly to get the job done and get everyone home, thats the reward. You do the job and look after each other.
It makes no difference who puts the last bullets into the enemy fighter or who gets the most tanks anymore.
No more colliding with teamates by all chasing the last 109 or smashing into another IL2 trying to get as many ground targets as possible. The reward of clearing your teammates tail even if you dont kill a thing should be more than enough.

COM's wingman thread made me think about how Mikester and myself fly together. Who gets the most points between us at the end of a 2v2 fight doesnt come into it at all, ever!
Success is us shooting down both our opponents and both surviving. As Rab or Ard said you feel guilty if you survive and your teammate doesn't.

COM said the FIS has progressed through the years to fly less arcade now with pit on and no icons, maybe the next step should be to remove the 'game' nature of the stats?

Be gentle M8's

He's right, do you know that?

You've got a point there Gadje.

Good points there and I agree. Stats encourage individualism and not team play.

I agree with you mate.

s!
Snoop

:FI:Snoop Baron wrote:I agree with you mate.

s!
Snoop

You agree Fernando? You? Ok am I the only one here seeing the irony in all this?

Snoop - "point hound" - Baron

Snoopy + Baron= 1,000,000,000 points! What did you expect?

Altar- 'Who is that doggie in a red tri-plane?'_Boy.

Only one way to find out....

Lets try it....next session?

The only way this has a chance is for pairs/groups/flights knowing what they are supposed to be doing and when. There are three stages- Getting there, doing the job, going home. If we get into the habit of all knowing which stage we are at and all doing it we will be a lot further on than we are now. At the moment it is not unusual for us to be doing all three at the same time!!!!.

The members who will need to put the most into this are the more skilled/experienced flyers because they will need to do the shepherding and have the patience to deal with the less experienced. In the spirit of good teamplay and not wasting other peoples time all should familiarise themselves with the type of aircraft they are going to be operating before the session , know the brief ,and listen to what the flight lead is saying throughout the mssion.

Common grumbles on this sort of suggestion is that it is too formal etc etc. Although I haven't flown there I get the impression that Historic Encounters works more along these lines and seems very popular and enjoyed by those that fly there- Why shouldn't it works for SCS ?.

Maybe its time to be more specific.

Much that I would if I could I can't do Friday HE so I can only speak of Sunday coop sessions.

I would suggest that if we decide to try this we change nothing until Nellips missions are completed (a nice slow ween off the stats tit ). I don't know if there are any new missions in the offing, I might even break my mission building cherry and have a go.

I believe (or hope!) that removing stats will make a real and beneficial effect on the way we fly together as a unit. First effect I reckon will be a calmer approach and a sense of more time when we enter into battle which should really benefit the flight leaders ability to organise the attack.

For those of us who really enjoy looking at their stats, a few points/ideas.

We could still keep some info as long as it was team related, I haven't thought this out properly but maybe a percentage of successful missions flown, current alive missions (might be embarrassing if too good ) Ok not exactly hardcore but something. In the end you know yourself how well you have done and if you would like others to know too, well frankly you can tell on comms already.

If this is not enough then I suggest we have another sort of coop running as well. Missions where mates can fly on either side. Stats should be fine here. Because if you dont fly as a team and there are human pilots about you will die quicky chasing your points.
Gen wrote a small Burma campaign where flying blue I saw a change in how red guys flew from the beginning; lining up one on each bomber thereby each had no cover (was like shooting ducks in a barrel) to flying in pairs (was tough for blue) to altering their mission to help survive. All good stuff not affected by stats except maybe in a positive way.

So thats my suggestion have a 'Teamplay' coop like we fly now but without stats for learning good practice and if required/wanted a more dangerous competitve one stats kept.

Lots of good points here Gadje. One of the reasons I dont really fly coop's much, is the AI for me is not good enough. They are too predictable, big deal if you shoot a few AI down, they are not human therefore they don't think or fly like human. I think splitting the coop's into 2 sides is a great idea. I would fly a lot more if this were the case. You do something stupid against a human and provided they have good support you are deed!!

Good chance to split comms and try some proper team work. Also good prac for online wars

Anyway not taking anything away from you guys, just think it would be a better challenge and make the game more exciting. After all excitement is what makes the game right!

Lada

I say forget AI and both teams battle each other. I used to do that with the HG. Much more exciting.

Turn off the stats.

Points are fun, but I also think it's time to give them up.

... a contradiction in teamplay and hunting for confirmed kills.

IMHO it´s a question of attitude everybody has to the game (... the reasons why you play it/what you can get out of it ...). I really do stress that I support the idea of teamplay: leaving ground targets where they are just in order to help a buddy being attacked by a foe, performing a neat attack run on that every single member of the flight has the chance to bomb the targets, orderly take offs and landings, etc.

As you can see I´m writing here as a bomber pilot so the situation for the fighters will be maybe a quite different yet I won´t care about this now here ...

:FI:Gadje wrote:We could still keep some info as long as it was team related, I haven't thought this out properly but maybe a percentage of successful missions flown, current alive missions (might be embarrassing if too good) Ok not exactly hardcore but something. In the end you know yourself how well you have done and if you would like others to know too, well frankly you can tell on comms already.

I could live with the idea keeping the stats for the single flights but this won´t work without tracking the unique stats for every pilot in terms of adding them up to the stats for each flight (that´s put together differently on each mission by its members). The IL-2 Mission Log Reader differentiate between the single flights so it´d be easy to check the flights´ stats. I´d really appreciate it if we could put the main focus on this ...

We need to change the SCS´s stats page completely for this project (adding aircraft type, etc) but it´d be worth it just in case we have a well planned and designed concept for the very own FIS Teamplay Statistics!

My two Pfennige

'I don´t see ...

... a contradiction in teamplay and hunting for confirmed kills.'

Gen you points-whore you


'We need to change the SCS´s stats page completely for this project '

you lost me there Gen!

If we do without stats the page gets removed! if we keep the stats for competitive coops with 2 teams it would work much the same perhaps with the addition of which colour you fly for in the campaign.
Of course if we change nothing then page stays as is.

So unless I'm missing something doesn't stat collecting get easier this way