Fighting Irish Forums

"Good Sir, as far as I am aware we never met in skies over Moscow!
What has fairness to do with historical accuracy?"

Its historical up to 1943 if you fly blue, its fairness after, it would seem,Guys reading this have seen it all before, its great fun knocking down Yak7b's, rata's etc ,why not fly moscow again and switch sides,then you can have all the fairness ye want, i' didnt fly the moscow campaign as i thought it was unbalanced but that's to be expected the soviets were on the backfoot with inferior planes but if you play Bessarabia is should be equally unbalanced, with the leveling of the scenario as implied above same old shite again :-" Greg you were right and always will be Amen

:FI:Wolfhound wrote:Its historical up to 1943 if you fly blue, its fairness after

I do not understand. Probably I my English is lacking. Can you elaborate, please?

:FI:Wolfhound wrote:its great fun knocking down Yak7b's, rata's etc

Sure! It is great fun knocking down all kind of planes!

But tell me, did you even bother to look at the planeset before thinking 'Blue organized this, planeset is Blue biased''?

It's all in the stats...

I shot down 5 Yak-7B.
And 0 I-16 (3 statics on the ground...)

The fighter I flew most was Bf-107-E7. Often I encountered P-39 and Yak-1B.

In the second last mission I had a great fight against Genosse in his Yak-1 and managed to shoot him down in my E-7.

Are you sure this planeset is biased towards any side?

My point is if you play Moscow the plane set is biased toward one side ,historically as it should be and Bessarabia should be biased toward the other side historically and as it should be,both are fair and yes i did bother to look at the plane set ,hench i wouldn't fly it , i dont like padding anyones stat's for any budding Rall's and Hartmann's nor would i like it for any armchair Douglas Baders or Brendan Eamon Fitzpatrick Finucane.this is an old story the same old same old.

To break you two up and be fair to you both .

Wolfhound is a victim (as are several FI) of the often found scenario we have encountered in wars where blue hosts have gone for historical planesets meaning F4's versus i-153's and I-16's in 41 to balanced in 44 where its flights of Me262 jets vs La-5's (La5fn is porked) I exaggerate but not that much. So I hope you understand the picture my teammate thinks is happening here.

However this war has not been like this so far at all. Red have/had better fighter planes than historic by some margin. F4 is still the pick of the bunch I'd say. but Yak-1b (never near Moscow at this time!) can give it hell and the others like the P39D-1 and P40 with the right opportunity are competitive enough. I've met lots of E-7s in better red planes and I've also been shot down a lot yet I've used the IL-2 as a fighter more than any other. So no complaints it's risky. Most frustration in this war has come from an early lack of knowledge and how dcg works...or doesn't.

The Il-2 cassettes are still going to be a deal breaker for some FI though unless some compromise is reached. In Moscow it's ban might have made sense from your arguments Zahl but with the G-1 about it doesn't anymore, at least if limited in amount. It's highly doubtful a cassette IL-2 can score more tank kills than that plane-( yes OK potentially 12 not 13 ) no bombs either.

My last try- How would you all feel about the same amount (8) of the default only 37mm cannon IL2-3m?

Wow, I never dreamed that "fairness" could be so entertaining!! Somebody pass me the popcorn.
HEY MISTER! One bag of peanuts over here please!

Enjoying the show Larry?

One persons fairness is another persons bias; but there are a couple of things we could do to solve this.

1. Nephris et al have picked the planeset and weapons on the basis of fairness, and therefore should be equally happy to fly red(because things are fair). So we swap sides for the Bessarabia campaign?
2. Take the human out of the loop by which I mean we agree a list of planes from an agreed source that were historically present on the battlefield, and then they get all load outs available in the game, so nobody can then be accused of bias.

Now sitting back and waiting for the fireworks

:FI:Blue2 wrote:HEY MISTER! One bag of peanuts over here please!

Sorry sir we only serve 'that ol' chestnut' here.

I still reckon you should do a few weeks of machine matches,or rerun fibow instead,anyway just my 2 cents ,now if i can port my F2b into il2 and use it instead of the blenheim ,convince rambo to go as my gunner,naaah maybe not he doesn't share his kills anymore

I'm glad you guys are entertained!

And I am especially glad someone who actually flew this campaign does not feel like being used as cannon fodder as Mr. W. Hound is suggesting.
Well...after you shot me down all this times I would not believe any cries from you anyway, Gadje.


About Blue flying Red: As I have said many times I would not mind to change sides. But as it stands I seem to be the only one. Now I think it would be fun to fly with you guys for a while, but obviously I would miss the experience with my team while you would be still stuck on Red.
And of course some smartass wisecracker might not be welcomed warmly anyway...

So a complete change of sides is not an option, me thinks. If some pilots want to fly others colours for a while, I'm sure we could find an agreement.
For example I could use tape and glue my mouth shut.

:FI:Gadje wrote:My last try- How would you all feel about the same amount (8) of the default only 37mm cannon IL2-3m?

So instead of 32 IL-2 Type 3 with limitations you say 24 IL-2 Type 3 with limitations + 8 IL-2 Type 3M limited to default?
I think this is a sound compromise, even without knowing the full capabilities of the 37mm.

I'm not really in the position to make any deals or promises as I am not the guy organizing anything as you know.The reason I typed all this stuff was imply to explain why the idea of limiting the Il-2 came up.

So hopefully Nephris will see this post and think about. Maybe I scared him away with pages of gibberish...

And of course some smartass wisecracker might not be welcomed warmly anyway...

I think you would fit right into the FI !

Every pilot is and was welcome to join.
If anyone has an issue with the Il2 armory and decides to not fly anymore, we will sadly accept it.
The planeset and weaponary is fair and balanced enough for both sides to reach the targets.

So be it.....

What Nephris says with 3 lines I'll try once more to translate...

Myself wrote:I think this is a sound compromise, even without knowing the full capabilities of the 37mm.

This was obviously more than over-hasty...

I won't tell any stories here. Please just create a mission in FMB. Place a Blue truck column on a road and a column of Panzer IV J2 right in front of them. Approach along the road from behind with IL-2 Type 3 M.
Can you tell were the truck column ends and the tanks start?

Repeat from the front. Still no difference.

And there is not much difference if you swap in heavy tanks. Also somebody forgot that 2x 37mm should create a little more recoil than machine guns...you can expend all your 12 seconds of ammunition without even the smallest vibration.

As long as tanks are the deciding factor in a campaign, this monstrosity is a joke.

Well, what more can I say...
I know there'll be the usual suspects yelling 'suck it up Blue, that's what is called historical!'.
Yes, of course you can do that. Just think about how much you enjoyed it when others did that because they wanted to go Hartmann on some Ratas...

BTW, just if someone is still interested, I think I found the reason why Ju-87 G1 is so much better than the Bf-110 in destroying tanks:
G1 Kanonenvogel fires an APCRT round (tungsten core shell) while the 110, being a a bomber-killer and not a tank destroyer, fires a HET round (high explosive).
Obviously there will be a difference concerning penetration. Thanks to the ancient IL-2Wingman program which solved the mystery!
Now the joke seems to be the Henschel: Apparently this plane fires the HET round from the 110, even though it is definitely a pure anti tank weapon. Maybe someone franken-planed the Henschel with a Bk.3,7 gunpod from a 110 when the plane was made flyable?!...

Whatever...
Hope to still see you in the air over Bessarabia - even though I will most certainly miss the first event this Sunday.

Salute!

GZ

Graf Zahl wrote:What Nephris says with 3 lines I'll try once more to translate...

Myself wrote:I think this is a sound compromise, even without knowing the full capabilities of the 37mm.

This was obviously more than over-hasty...

GZ

Just tried the 37mm Il-2 , not versus the tank/ truck combo but just tank on QMB Bessarabia with late Russian tanks (I forgot to change) and it was pretty effective most of the time, wrong angle and not. The problem is the amount of ammo! I expected 20-30 rounds it went on and on. 60 maybe? so not a good idea, sorry for that!.

Doesn't change the fact however Nephris has given blue a better tank destroyer in the G-1 than any IL-2 with or without cassettes and gives no justification for why this tank killer is then OK but your opponents lesser able plane needs neutered ?. So it's BS whining about cassettes and the need to carry bombs then puting that plane in. We have offered compromises here even to the point of you have cassettes, fly red -we fly blue. But none come back on this matter. I accept you have drawn a line under this M8.
Too bad

I can understand the malcontent about not reaching any compromise here.


Yet this

:FI:Gadje wrote:Doesn't change the fact however Nephris has given blue a better tank destroyer in the G-1 than any IL-2 with or without cassettes and gives no justification for why this tank killer is then OK but your opponents lesser able plane needs neutered ?

is a bit over the top in my humble opinion.

Of course the Ju87 G-1 is good tank destroyer, but you are belittling the abilities of the IL-2 Type 3 by a big margin!

Even without without it's magic packets of destruction it is nothing less but a flying swiss army knife - prepared for every task that might arise.
The G-1 on the other hand is a specialist. It's 12 shots mean it must be used with care and a steady hand. And let's not forget: The heavy Red tanks like SU-85 and KV-1 will very likely not pop like a bubble with one shot.

So let's take a closer look...

There will be 24 IL-2 Type 3.
Blue will get only 8 Stuka G-1.

The IL-2 is faster at all heights - about 60 km/h at sea level. Overall flight performances look superior (rate of climb, weight to power).
This is not the most important point, but it plays a role - especially when the Stuka could easily become the IL-2's prey.

The IL-2 can take a a good punch. The Stuka is not known for this quality.

As we have seen over Moscow, the IL-2 can hold it's own when attacked by fighters and even lash out at ground attackers / bombers.
The Stuka might place a lucky shot here and there (which will certainly spell doom and destruction) but considering it's low ammunition even trying those shots will endanger it's real job - hunting tanks. Attacking bombers or ground attackers offensively is out of the question because the Stuka is the slowest plane around.

Again the guns of the Il-2 enable it to not only to engage tanks and planes but countless numbers of soft targets. Yes...countless.
The Type 3 brings no less than 300 rounds or 30 seconds of continuous fire. The Stuka can obviously attack soft targets as well - but even if every shot hits, after 12 times the curtain is closed.

The Il-2 is not forced to rely on cannons only. Should it turn out it's unable to break the StuG III with them, it still can flip out another tool and use it's wide array of rockets, bombs or both.
But honestly you won't need this. As said above I've tested it against Pz IV F2 which should be the best Blue tank armor-wise and was able to crack them even when attacking low and from the side. So with 30 seconds of fun time there'll be plenty Panzer husks in your wake.


After all this I can not follow your evaluation, Gadje.
Of course there is no reason to underestimate the G-1 and the use it will have for Blue. But pretending it means utter destruction to Red is just too much in my humble opinion.
Since there are so few G-1 available I can much more imagine that Blue will have to protect them like a glass of beer in an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting...
After they are lost Blue's back to the stone age...err Moscow age and needs to carry every bomb for bomb to target.


Well, it's your choice. I fail to see how you are lost without PtABs / Cassettes, but maybe I got Blue glasses on.


So if the setting sends some of you running and this leaves the rest in insufficient numbers, maybe someone needs to call a ROTER NOVEMBER...
I'll happily take the concrete bird for a spin...if I get a La-5 or Yak from time to time!

Cheers!

GZ