SCS Debriefing

[:FI:Gadje]

Well I'm going to give this a try.

13/5
Norway missions

I missed the first one so maybe someone there could comment. So this is mission 2 from my personal perspective flying a bomber.

Wasn't one of our best

Bombers and cover took a long time to meet up, there appeared to be some confusion over flightpath. Luckily no enemy fighters encountered by allied bombers before fighters met up. I have some blame in this suggesting we go on as I thought the fighters would quickly catch up but they were climbing and the Beaufighter is fast!

Beaufighters did a pretty good job of taking out shipping targets (well led by Helo) and were not bothered by any enemy fighters over the target (thanks to Mustangs?)

Thereafter we became a bit of a rabble taking out secondary targets, a few near collisions I think.

Helo did call for a rtb but we all split apart by returning at different times. Also little radio contact with fighters to tell them and ask for cover(if they could)

Widely dispersed Beaufighters with no fighter cover on rtb were attacked by 2 FW's. They fly past me to get to Helo and another beaufighter, I fire and give chase. The 190's hit one beau and breaks, I fire again. They reverse to come round again, I hit one a bit and it breaks again travelling back along our path and hopefully toward our fighters.
Difficult decision to make now reverse to rtb or keep after the 190. I decided to keep on him. He was hit and going slower so I had a chance to take him out and if I turned he would likely follow me and rear view in the Beau is awful.

I keep chipping at him and eventually see our fighters. I keep firing when a Mustang passes above me and starts shooting at the 190 nearly getting some Hispanos in his tail A couple of seconds later I'm being hit myself- the other 190! I call for the Mustang to break off and help but too late

6- 11 make it back.

A few things we need to try and do a wee bit better IMO, most are pretty obvious and have been done before.

- If we fly from different bases decide together where to meet and at what alt.

- Maybe flight leader of the bombers keeps control of the group after first pass is made so we attack in formation when he says rather than the danger of colliding when its every man for himself.

- Ground pounders should all return together when leader says so (depending on ammo left in group and enemy fighter/flack density) If one has to rtb because of hits perhaps someone could go back with him.

- Try and return with fighters by communicating together and checking out the situation. Bombers on fighters advice can return alone, wait for them at safe point or even help them if possible if in suitable plane.

Even if we are keeping individual stats it would be good if we could try and work together for the whole groups survival a bit more.


S!


(Well debriefings are TacticalS's Idea so it had to be a long post )

[:FI:Sneaky_Russian]

I think we managed to confuse the AAA. Dont think anyone took any flak hits even if I did get shot down by a bridge (maybe the warning about flaps had something to do with it)

Maybe before take-off RV point should be specified for egress (and a backup plan in case the airspace is "hot")

Probably the high spots of the evening were: 1) seeing everyone getting to grips with formation, and 2) only 1 re-start.
Oh and not forgetting the World record for an Il2 glider flight.

Well done all.

[:FI:TacticalS!]

(Well debriefings are TacticalS's Idea so it had to be a long post )

No worry chaps. Ever since I started working on a completely new session, something I will call "Futuristic Avoidances," I sort of left worrying about your blatant piracy of all things "Historic Encounters."

TS!

[:FI:Heloego]

...those are very good points made by both Gadje and Sneaky.

As for Mission 1:It was poorly led by Helo. On approach to the target I directed the flight to the wrong area (so sorry about that!) and the airfield AAA took it's toll of me, though the remaining flight members did a fine job and maintained a good grouping on RTB.

Mission 2: The convoy was a bit flush with AAA, but a good spread on the attack leveled the playing field nicely!
Pre-flight briefing by me could have been much clearer re exit strategy, but with no real intel re the target we had to play some of it by ear.

I. too was fooled by the speed of the Beau. I noted at one point a speed of 370kmh level flight, but didn't pay attention to the fact we out-paced the still-climbing fighters. (Gotta watch that next time. ) Communication between Bomber Lead and Fighter Lead would have solved that problem.

Better comm re the Secondary Target location definitely would have improved our effectiveness.

Since the Beaus had no rear gunner, a tight return formation would have had questionable effectiveness and may have exposed more of us to the 190's cannon on one pass. However, we were still spread too far apart to provide any effective defense for each other, assuming the any one of us had enough heavy rounds to be of any use.
Therefore I recommend a somewhat tighter RTB group, say .5km apart to allow for the B&Z of the 190s...if a craft forward of you is attacked you'll have a short window to snap off a few heavy rounds at the attacker. At .5km range, you may not kill him, but he can be enticed to re-evaluate his options, and any damage may slow his next attack, allowing for a better shot at him on his next pass.

Map Familiarity and Loadouts: Some of us were unfamiliar with the map/target area. This automatically puts one at a disadvantage when Intel is lacking. I recommend that given similar circumstances we either modify our loadouts to allow for additional passes, or rely on the "make one pass...haul ass" philosophy, saving ammo for defensive fire during RTB, if needed.

Comms: Should we make it SOP for Flight Leaders to regularly report position info (say, every 5 minutes) to each other?
Additionally, I noted that with our current arrangement, I was usually unable to maintain comm with my flight because of other flight comms "walking all over me" when I was already talking with another in my flight.
We need to re-arrange our comm methods:
a) set key bindings for Group, Flight Leaders, and Flight Members to avoid crowding of channels;
b) MINIMIZE info / reduce chatter. I know we've really improved our comm over the last several months, but there is still room for improvement and I'm as guilty as anyone. Keep reports/orders short, ie "Weiner Leader AF 2-3 Heading 270, Altitude 1000km", and limiting responses to "Weiner 2 Affirmative/Negative", etc. will go a LONG way toward improving comm effectiveness. Perhaps we could shorten it even more, as long as we always use the same format. My suggestion for a Flight Leader would be as follows: ID/Grid Loc/Altitude/Heading/Speed/End TX (ie "Weiner Leader A-3, 1000, 270, 320 Over"). keeps it short, sweet, might be confusing to any enemy listening in, and if you wish you may add a "smooch" to end the transmission just to let everyone know you love 'em.

Relief Tubes: DO NOT USE IN CLOSE FORMATION. It stains the windscreen and annoys the pilot/copilot of any following aircraft. (There's a tip from yer Uncle Helo. )



Yeah, I know! I get a bit wordy on occasion.

[:FI:Gadje]

Great stuff Helo

This needed someone who knows what they are talking about.

Gad<bombernoob>je


ps sorry about about the spray and its colour. I'm actually quite well.....I had beetroot salad before the mission.

[:FI:Heloego]

ps sorry about about the spray and its colour. I'm actually quite well.....I had beetroot salad before the mission.

NP.

But that stringy stuff hardens and looks like bloody cracks in my windscreen.

[:FI:Nellip]

...those are very good points made by both Gadje and Sneaky.

As for Mission 1:It was poorly led by Helo. On approach to the target I directed the flight to the wrong area (so sorry about that!) and the airfield AAA took it's toll of me, though the remaining flight members did a fine job and maintained a good grouping on RTB.

Not sure what mission 1 you flew Dan, but from what I remember of it only Frank left the target area (on one engine, although it appeared to others that both were out ).

Still his sole aircraft did maintain good grouping on RTB I guess

AAA over the targets was murderous and their was no discipline at all - many people attacked the wrong target altogether. I did manage to make a run on the boat base which was the primary but as a lone attacker drew all the AAA and took too much damage. Bailed and was then killed by the AAA in my chute

I agree with the points and leadership required - we have debated this before I think............

[:FI:Gurberly]

*Cough*

Yeah sorry I dropped out of mission 1... I guess as mission writer I could have made all the difference.

I did watch the tracks of both missions and yeah people did get a bit dictracted by ancillary targets in the first mission leaving a single/two Beaufighter to attack the MTB base. 3 MTB and three AAA on teh site... 2 waves of 4 Beaufighters should have got them.

Sorry fighters had a bit of a poor trip, not sure why the Bf109's did not engage...they even at one point flew directly over a flight of Beaufighters.

Mission 2 the attack on the ships went well... only two left despite some dodgy rocket aiming The brief did say north to the secondary target and not south back to the MTB base. Sorry accidentilly left a couple of MTB's at the base which got the stragglers who decided to head south.

Again will try to make it more interesting for the fighters next time

Will send a pathfinder squad to "light" target areas in future to enable target identification

G

[:FI:Heloego]

...it was a great mission and I'd not mind running it again.

Re Pre-mission Briefings:

Generally one doesn't get much of one ("Fighters fly escort/Bombers attack armor in B2-3"), yet poor Intel probably does more to prevent a successful completion than anything else. As long as we're trending toward more realism in our sessions why not include some realistic Pre-Flight Briefings?

In RL, there was (and is) usually some sort of recon prior to any mission, be it a fly-over, "Underground" reports, or whatever.
Good briefings would include as much info as possible in order to ensure the highest possible success and lowest possible attrition. Additionally, it allowed for proper selection of loadouts, fuel quantity, escort, etc.

That said, I believe each briefing should be broken down as follows:
1. Type of Mission (CAP, Escort, Recon, GA, etc.)
2. Known Target Type and Location, if available.
3. Expected Defense Type and Capability.
4. Weather
5. Recommended Ingress/Egress Headings and/or Flight Path
6. Recommended Fuel.


Obviously, the creators of most missions don't take this into consideration, DCG doesn't do any better, and we can't expect complete briefings for each type of flight when the Coop includes multiple types. But it should be something to consider when a Coop is designed around either Fighter Flights or GA goodness.

One could easily design a good briefing around the attack on King Kong in New York circa first half of the 20th Century, but most of us would ignore it just to watch him climb Fae Ray.

[:FI:Nellip]

Very good points Helo - I definitely acknowledge by briefs are not up to much. Thats the ones I write, not the ones I wear

I tend to concentrate on the action and briefing is the thing I do last when I write a mission.

I have 3 Italy missions written for red v blue. I will have a look at them over the next couple of days and see if I can improve the briefings along the lines you describe. Maybe we can then fly them one Sunday and see if it makes any difference.

I am a bit sceptical - we have had occasions where people suddenly announce on Comms "what heading to the target", or "what's the mission guys, I didn't read the brief" .....

But its worth a try.

[:FI:Nellip]

OK - update on the above.

I have rewritten the briefs for 3 Italy missions along the lines Helo suggested - more detail on headings, AAA, ordnance requirements etc.

If we want to try these tonight I can e-mail to whoever hosts.

[:FI:Heloego]

And the Briefings were just fine!

I've edited my last post to include Weather as one of the Briefing Points, but that may not be necessary.

(Gawd, the AAA was scary!!!!!!

[:FI:Falcon]

Neil,

The missions were great last week. Interesting areas, plentiful targets and multiple choices. I will be there next Sunday fer sher!

Just three questions ... how much fuel should I take and what bombs should I bring?


Falcon

[:FI:Sneaky_Russian]

100% bombs and 2 fuel should be enough.

[:FI:Heloego]

...these two members can't count.

According to George Carlin, 2+2 do not equal 4.

All numbers equal 9, except 6, which equals 17.

Clear enough?








(He also states elsewhere that the neighbors feel he bears watching.)