Bessarabia - Development

[Graf Zahl]

Yay! Planeset discussions!

I also proposed Yogi's Planeset to Nephris...

But here I'll just post my extremely wise and important comments to every plane:

A-20
Please not. It's a Spit with to engines. And I don't mean 4.11 and later Spits...
Just a joke with wings. FAB 1000 apparently weights 20 kilos.
G-Version lacks the FAB but gets a super gunner.

IL-2
Yes. Of course.

La-5F(50% FN)
La-5F..yes please. Nice dogfighter. Pretty hard in turning fights for the blue opposition, but a bit "toned down" by it's engine power in comparison.
No Lala-FN please. Oleg Delta-wood-crapplane makes interesting dogfights impossible.

P-39
Yes, please. Awesome plane. Love it.

Pe-2
Sure.

Po-2
Well...maybe AI only..or does anybody have so much time?

Yak-1
Why not. 1B probably?

Yak-7
Yep

Yak-9
Yes. Yummy. Yaks are nice.
9D version: Why not. as far as I can tell, this plane is the same as standard Yak-9 as long as you do not fill up the tank. But is this long range Yak needed for anything?

B24-J100Cf
A real bomber. Yes please. Maybe even B-17 (tougher!)?

P-38J
Love it!
Makes me think about putting on red socks!

P_47D22
Not easy to use...but this plane gets extra points for coolness!

P-51B
I think this plane is cool. I am unable to get a kill with it, but it's cool. If red wants it, why not?


And the blue planes...

BF_109G6Late
BF_109G6Erla

G6Late need to be in. Early sucks with it's stupid armor shield. Have no idea about the Erla. Never felt a difference. Any objections?

FW_190A6
Finally a Focker.
Get it in the field please!

Fw-190F-8
I hate the F series. Looks like a Focke, flies like crap. I do not need this abomination. Oleg took the weight of the plane but forgot the armor. Combined with weak bombs it is just useless if normal FWs are available.

BF_110G2
No fun without the destroyer.

Do217_K1
A powerful blue bomber - bring it!

JU_88A4
Sure. Blue needs it.

JU_87G1
A bit unsure about it's worth against late red tanks, but let' try it.

ME_410A
I did never see this plane as the killer you describe, Gadje.
Maybe it's a 110 on steroids. But except for a little power bonus, I don't see many differences to the 110. If people are really bothered, leave it out. If not, it's a new plane I would like to test out.
Ripping a Liberator into pieces is not really difficult for a 110 or a 190. B-17 is where it's at!

Hs-129B2
Piece of crap.
Nice cockpit and all, but no combat value.

IAR-81C
In '41 it would be cool. Against the red planes above...please not.

Ju-87D-5
Sure. Not a super plane, but something would be missing without the good ol' Stuka!

Enough for now...good night!

GZ

[:FI:Blue2]

Did yer polls, Nephris - good idea.
Surprised to see I was the only guy (of 8!!) to vote for "vanilla" 4.12.1 so far - why all the malcontent against it?? Have all you guys flown it enough to think it's crap already?? Personally I think it's pretty good! (Might need to tone down the AI skill levels a little, is all.)!
Also I have 2 concerns about using the newest HSFX:
1) 4.12.1 had MANY new features over 4.11. There will inevitably be bugs to work out - always are. But likely more than usual this time. I expect multiple HSFX updates ahead. This increases likelihood that guys will forget to download latest changes each week, and thus will be out of luck at mission launch time (I KNOW this will happen multiple time on the Red side FI guys at least!)
2) We already have several more FI who'd probably be joining us some or all Sundays right now, but can't get their HSFX to work well. If we use vanilla 4.12.1, more FI will likely be able to join in. (Not your problem, Blue guys, but other FI guys need to think about it, and perhaps you'll consider this too if you like. Remember, we could always put a few of our guys on your side if it's too uneven, and have larger groups on both sides.)

Some quotes from the Moscow thread:

Remember, no "concrete birds" for us....

Us poor blue guys fight hard for every tank we kill...

I hear similar comments from Red guys about some Blue planes as well. Each side tends to focus on its weaknesses & the other side's strengths.
I think it's high time for all of us to spend some time in the other guy's shoes.
So here's a suggestion. Before Bessarabia, let's flip a coin to see which group flies Red, and which flies Blue. Then we fly the campaign for some period, say 8 weekends for example. Then we switch sides, start it again from the start, and fly for 8 weekends. I think that would be a great experience for everyone on both sides. I'm almost certain the FI would happily agree to something like this. After all, Armitage already labeled me a traitor for flying Blue in Bessarabia a couple weeks ago!
Would you "Blue" guys be open to something like this - a side switch for some defined period? Could be longer or shorter than my example, of course.

[Graf Zahl]

Each side tends to focus on its weaknesses & the other side's strengths.

As said here, my post probably sounded too whiny...

I voted for modded IL-2 just because I'm used to it. Haven't really tested 4.12 until now. From the last work of Daidalos, I expect it to be good but still lacking the many many options mods provide.
So why accept a cut back?

I can see your argument with getting more pilots involved & possible problems with update chaos, though.
Personally I always thought of HSFX installation as 'fool proof', as long you have an ok-ish download speed. Can't really see how there would be consisting problems with installing it.

Maybe I should take a closer look at 4.12 to determine what features would be lost that we are actually using in the campaign. Probably not that much!

[:FI:Gadje]

Did yer polls, Nephris - good idea.
Surprised to see I was the only guy (of 8!!) to vote for "vanilla" 4.12.1 so far - why all the malcontent against it?? Have all you guys flown it enough to think it's crap already?? Personally I think it's pretty good! (Might need to tone down the AI skill levels a little, is all.)!
Also I have 2 concerns about using the newest HSFX:
1) 4.12.1 had MANY new features over 4.11. There will inevitably be bugs to work out - always are. But likely more than usual this time. I expect multiple HSFX updates ahead. This increases likelihood that guys will forget to download latest changes each week, and thus will be out of luck at mission launch time (I KNOW this will happen multiple time on the Red side FI guys at least!)
2) We already have several more FI who'd probably be joining us some or all Sundays right now, but can't get their HSFX to work well. If we use vanilla 4.12.1, more FI will likely be able to join in. (Not your problem, Blue guys, but other FI guys need to think about it, and perhaps you'll consider this too if you like. Remember, we could always put a few of our guys on your side if it's too uneven, and have larger groups on both sides.)

Some quotes from the Moscow thread:

Remember, no "concrete birds" for us....

Us poor blue guys fight hard for every tank we kill...

I hear similar comments from Red guys about some Blue planes as well. Each side tends to focus on its weaknesses & the other side's strengths.
I think it's high time for all of us to spend some time in the other guy's shoes.
So here's a suggestion. Before Bessarabia, let's flip a coin to see which group flies Red, and which flies Blue. Then we fly the campaign for some period, say 8 weekends for example. Then we switch sides, start it again from the start, and fly for 8 weekends. I think that would be a great experience for everyone on both sides. I'm almost certain the FI would happily agree to something like this. After all, Armitage already labeled me a traitor for flying Blue in Bessarabia a couple weeks ago!
Would you "Blue" guys be open to something like this - a side switch for some defined period? Could be longer or shorter than my example, of course.

Just not voted yet Larry!
My mother used to do this thing to stop bickering between brothers over who gets the most . One cuts the cake the other chose the best slice. Smart my Ma.
I'll happily fly blue.

[Graf Zahl]

Oh yes...I forgot the real reason for answering in this thread....

I do not have any objections about switching sides. Limiting the number of Sundays we spend in this campaign is a good idea in this case. Otherwise it would probably be 'Bessarabia forever'!
Well, I would even like to switch sides in the currently running campaign just for shits and giggles. Albeit tactical planning and probable espionage sadly forbid this...

Gadje: I'll give you a crash course in German, than you join blue as me and pretend to have sore throat or something. While I sneak in the red team and pretend to be a Scot to niggard to buy a new mic after the old broke while "Tossing The Caber" at the Highland Games. Might work, me thinks!

[Nephris]

What do u mean with limiting the days we play and then switch?
Like playing 8 weeks, counting how many location were conquered by each side and the most won?
Switching within a campaign after a certain time sounds a bit be useless, as I dont put effort into pushing the front east for blue side first , then switch for trying to move the frontline back to west.
For myself i am not interested to switch on red side and would stay blue in whatever team.
However I see no reason why several pilots shouldnt switch sides in the beginning of a campaign, if they ´d like to fly red or blue this time.

There woulnt be much features cut, if we´d switch to 4.12 vanilla.
Especially in the Bessarabia & Moscow maps are no mods used if we d use the planeset by Yogi provided or similar.
In a north africa campaign it would be hard or actually impossible to use no mods, due the lack of proper maps, however this is a different topic after Bessarabia.
We´d miss some cockpit repaints ... well not a big loss imho.
The poll is running, so depends on the guys who will still vote.

[:FI:Gadje]

Oh yes...I forgot the real reason for answering in this thread....

I do not have any objections about switching sides. Limiting the number of Sundays we spend in this campaign is a good idea in this case. Otherwise it would probably be 'Bessarabia forever'!
Well, I would even like to switch sides in the currently running campaign just for shits and giggles. Albeit tactical planning and probable espionage sadly forbid this...

Gadje: I'll give you a crash course in German, than you join blue as me and pretend to have sore throat or something. While I sneak in the red team and pretend to be a Scot to niggard to buy a new mic after the old broke while "Tossing The Caber" at the Highland Games. Might work, me thinks!

Frank can vouch for my German it's perfectly serviceable. I know how to ask for a beer, where are the docks? and how much for an hours service with a ladyboy.....cough...plumber?, and the rude word for penis too. Your abilities at tossing, be it a caber or whatever Zahl I'd prefer not to picture in my strictly Scottish puritan mind thank you. And I have a rather bird like voice, dulcet tones, rather like a nightingale.

Voted 4.12.

[:FI:Blue2]

What do u mean with limiting the days we play and then switch?

I was only trying to suggest it might be fun for all of us (and good for any who feel like their side is disadvantaged somehow) to switch sides for some pre-defined period of time. The length of time and all other details were examples only. We would want to fly for the opposite side long enough to get a "feel" for how it is from their perspective, though. That's the whole intent. It's about walking a mile in the other guy's shoes. Was hoping that might appeal to others too.

[Nephris]

Hi guys,
thany for your votes! This gives a good fram where to go and where not.
However I would like to motivate the "shy guys from last row" also to vote, the more
we got at the end, I guess the more will be satisfiesd with the outcome.

Atm around half of blue & red pilots voted.

Several polls have been added (5 total), following ones will be introduced to the main page to be more prominent.

[Nephris]

As Moscow is comin to an end after unbelivable 10 months,
we should successfully end also the planeset discussion.
According to the polls outcome is on 4.11.1 & HSFX we will stick to that as long as an updated version of HSFX got released.

Bomber

Pe-2 84
B-24J

Do217K
Ju88 A4



Ground Attack

Il2 Type3

Ju87-G1
Me210
Bf110G2



Fighter

La5F
P51b
Yak9
P39N1
P47D22 or P38J


Bf109G2
Bf109G6L
FW190A5


As soon as we got the complete list done, we need to speak about weapon limitations.
Weapon limits then need to be controlled by the server commander aswell, as the MDS solution doesnt work here due changing squadron locations at airfields.



Airfields
As already stated in the Moscow thread, this campaign is completly mds dedicated. The moscow one was initially created for coop & sp.
Airfields will have 4 static oil trucks & 4 static transport trucks. 3 static planes which will count into the total plane numbers (you still have time to vote until campaign begin).Note:In moscow we had around 5 - 10 static planes at one airfield. The big airfields are heavily defended by 3x88/76mm + 3x37/40mm + 3x20/25mm + 3xAAAMg, the smaller one lack of big calibers. Airfields cant /neednt be conquered. No airfields within the direct battlearea.


Industry Zone
Each Army got 2 indutry areas. We will find in each zone 4x4 oil trucks and 4x4 transport trucks beside certain buildings (will post screenshot). A pilot will be able to recon where & how many statics are still present and if it is worth to bomb.Of course this area are AAA defended aswell in same numbers in each zone.


Bridges
We will find several bridges in the campaign used by columns. Each bridge is aswell defended by AAA, as it is a valuebale target to slow dwon the enmy.Bridge repair time 2 missions.


Tanks
T34-85,M4A2-76W,Su85,ZSU37,Katyusha,Kv1
PzIVJ,PzIVF2,StuG3,MarderIII,Nimrod

[:FI:Gadje]

Thanks Nephris.

The list looks good. Can you give the numbers of each plane available to human pilots if this list is used?

We are discussing the P47/38 choice and the list in general and will get back to you ASAP.

Cheers
G

[Nephris]

I just wanted to wait for the final set before we discuss about that.
Shall we add a low level fighter on each side or shall we use fix plane numbers each mission/evening, if these are gone we need to fly bomber or ground attack?
Unsure atm, what is your opinion here?


I added to the campaign site the raod map, airfield and industry situation and the initial front line aswell (Campaign -> Bessarabia).

The map and battleground is much smaller than Moscow and I do not expect it will last to the end of the year....but i did for moscow neither tbh


edit:
you will find here the correct loadings of most planes, pls give me the list of weapons yopu would like to see limited.

[Nephris]

You will find the final planeset at the campaoign site under campaign->Bessarabia

We suggest following payload limits
B-24J-100-CF=12
Il-2_3=32;216xAJ-2;96xPTAB2_54b3;192xPTAB2_5;2xVAP250
La-5F=4
P-39N1=4
P-51C-NT=4
Pe-2series84=12
Yak-9=4
P-38J=4;4x3;2x3n2x1000;2x3n2x500;2x3;4x3




Bf-109G-2=4
Bf-109G-6_Late=8;U3-MK108;R5-MK108;U3R3-MK108;U3R6-MG151-20
Bf-110G-2=8;r3;r3m1;r3m2sc250;r3m2ab250;r3m2sc500;r3m2sd500;r4_
Do-217K-1=12;1xSC1800;4xSD1000;3xSD1000;2xSC1000
Fw-190A-5=4
Ju-87G-1=8
Ju-88A-4=12;1xSC1000;2xSC1000;2xAB1000;2xSC1800;2xSC2000;2xSC1000_2xSC500;1xSC1000_1xSC500;1xSC1000_1xSC250
Me-210Ca-1=8

[:FI:Gadje]

I think initially I and others might have misunderstood your list.

I take it I am right now in thinking the loadouts mentioned you recommend are not allowed?

[Nephris]

Right.
That are the loadouts which are not allowed.
I just copied the list of the server commander ini. file.

So all Mk108 and any combinations are not allowed on blue side, which effects the Bf110G2 and the Bf109G6L.
All bombs more than 500kg are not allowed for blue bombers, which effects the Ju88 and Do217k.

The Il2 Type 3 got castrated by its all-in-once column devastator weapons like the AJ and Ptab cassettes and the Napalm bombs.
The P38J looses its rocket armory and combinations.

Here is a excel list of the actual plane numbers.

I suggest to leave the airfield management (where which squadron will be located or transfered) to DCG, as changing it manually is time consuming
and even if the front would get close to an airfield, DCG manages transfering threated sqaudrons far better.

Bridges will be repaired directly in the next mission.

All further data for static trucks are provided on the camapign site with recon screenshots for both sides.

Any wishes for default patrolling heights for your AI planes like La5,Il2Type2,Il4 or P47 and Pe8?

Further Server Settings
activated ground controll radio
deactivated AI radio
AI will despawn after landed
hide unpopulated/enemy airfields
hide players at airfields in briefing
direction vector request for home basis activated

(will be summed at campaign site also)